International Association for the Study of Dreams

[arne saknussemm]

On EVERY lucid dreaming message board, sooner or later someone claims that "shared dreams" are possible, and furthermore that he has them.

It would be very easy to prove this claim under conditions where no cheating was possible -- in other words, where the participants couldn't share information while they were awake and then pretend that they had shared it while they were asleep.

So, to clear this up once and for all -- do any of you claim to experience shared dreams? And if so, are you willing to back up what you're claiming? If you are, then I'm eager to put you to the test.

And just think -- after you've proved your claim, you'll become world-famous! So don't wait! Let's do this right away!

[Rawn]

Yes I do claim to have shared a dream with a friend before.

But I do not claim it is something I am able to do with any conscious intent, and as such any experimentation would be worthless. It was an entirely un-planned event.

As with all dreams there will never be any way to back-up the claims that everyone would be able to accept. But I do know that in the case of my friend and me we both know it happened.

I hadnt seem my friend for a few weeks, then I had a dream where she told me she was going to quit her job. I didnt see her for another couple weeks and as a joke i asked her if she quit her job. She was shocked and asked why i said it. I told her i had a dream...She then told me that she had been given a job offer that she was seriously considering, but she didnt tell anyone about it.

So to me, it was a shared dream....but it wont be "proof" to anyone but me and her.

But that was 15 years ago, and I never had any such dreams since...so not anything that could be tested.
_________________
All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other.

H P Lovecraft

[arne saknussemm]

That wasn't a "shared dream." In a "shared dream," you and your friend would have had the very same dream at the very same time. In this case, your friend didn't have the dream that you had.

[Rawn]

all depends on how you want to split hairs.
The meeting of two consciousnesses to pass on information is a sharing.
_________________
All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other.

H P Lovecraft

[Marcia]

I don't think it is splitting hairs. I think these are two completly are completely different things.

It would be perfectly normal for two people who are very close, who have common interests, who care about each other and who are concerned about each other and who are good at intuitively "reading" each other to have dreams about similar topics - because they are thinking about the same things, even if sometimes only on an unconscious level. For the same reason, I think it is perfectly plausible for one of these people to predict the behavior of the other person in a dream. Rawn, this sounds like what you are describing and I don't think it is necessary to test that these are possible. I am sure they happen.

From what I have been reading here, however, it seems like when people claim to have a "shared dream" it sounds like literal telepathy, where the thought patterns of one person are somehow simultaneously transmitted acros space into the brain of the other person.

arne, what would your test entail? At first, I was thinking that you could have two people sleeping in separate rooms record their dreams on papper after they woke up, and then have a third, objective person read both dream reports. But there is nothing to prevent the two people from conferring before and then preparing a dream to report in advance (in other words, lying about what they dreamed.)

It would only work if you used two complete strangers who had never met before and were not allowed to have any contact until after the experiment, but then people would argue that they can only "share" dreams with people that they know.

So I am curious about your plan.

[Rawn]

For me I would see it as splitting hairs, because from my perspective consciousness is a unified field shared by all living things with only a perception of separateness garnered from our egoic nature.
So from that all experiences that we consider telepathic are really all the same experience in the unified consciousness.

With regard to my shared dream. You can take the example of a blind man handing an apple to their sighted friend. The blind man is sharing the experience of the apple, the only difference is the sighted man can enjoy the deep rich red colour that goes with the apple. But they both are sharing an experience, each to their own ability to perceive.
With my friend in the dream, the fact that she was unaware of the communication in the dream was simply the fact that she was unaware, but since the only way I could have gotten the information was from her consciousness, that alone shows the communion of the shared information.
_________________
All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other.

H P Lovecraft

[Marcia]

[Rawn]

[_]

[arne saknussemm]

There are many possible ways to do it. For example, a woman once claimed on a message board that a woman she knew was always coming into her dreams and harassing her. So I told her that the next time that happened, she should challenge the woman to invade one of MY dreams and harass ME.

All of a sudden the alleged victim of the dream harassment stopped posting on that board.

That's what people like her tend to do when you shine a flashlight on them.

[Marcia]

[Away]

Let someone speak long enough, and their colours show...isn't that the saying?

Arnie, this is exactly what you denied in your experiment thread. But I knew you were here to try and disprove what people share about their dreaming.

I have experienced shared dreaming many times...exactly the sort of shared dreaming that you like to disprove.

But the best thing about my dreaming, is that I don't dream, or share dreams, to prove that it can happen to anyone

If you would like proof, the only way is to experience it yourself. Not by manipulating someone who has shared dreams, into doing it with you to 'prove' it...but by doing the dreaming work involved in getting to that point yourself...which you have not, apparently, or you would have some understanding on how things move in other vibrations.

When working with energy, the act of trying to Disprove, counters the energetic movement of what would happen, thereby canceling it out.
There is a paradox there, if you can grasp it...

In the meantime, while you are trying to disprove it, you are missing the experience of it happening. So have fun with that.

People who already share dreams, have no need to prove it to others who cannot do it themselves. People who genuinely share dreams, or I like to say, meet in dreaming.

Maybe some day you will find an understanding beyond the limited one you currently portray...

[Marcia]

Experiencing something yourself is not a way to prove something. I can experience something, but that can be a delusion, an illusion or a hallucination. The only way to prove something is through objective testing - to fail at attempts to disprove it. And the testing must be done by a neutral third party, who would not be influenced by the same things that influence my perception.

That is not a limited way a thinking.

A limited way of thinking is the insistence that your interpretation of an experience is correct without being open to the possibility of alternative explanations.

Away, you are correct that there is no need to prove anything if you are happy with your experience.

But what about cases, such as the one that arne mentioned, in which the dreamer is not happy and wants something to change?

[Away]

The limitation Marcia, is in not understanding the ways energy moves, and the ways dreaming happens. Which you seem not to as well.

The paradox, is that when one reaches the depth of dreaming within themselves where these things happen, it becomes known, that they cannot be observed in the traditional scientific structure.
Similar to the double slit...you see, dreaming occurs in the wave state.

You can argue that, and it will go nowhere.

Confirming it objectively with the one you meet in dreaming, is enough.
For those who have not experienced it, the only proof is in doing, first...and then explaining.

Yes, people are often disillusioned and often lie to themselves...but that is not always the case. When one does dreaming work in a serious way, they take these things into account. Until the paradox is realized, however, there is really no way to communicate these two points...

Do the dreaming work yourself, and find out what it is you speak on, before discounting what I say.

[Away]

"A limited way of thinking is the insistence that your interpretation of an experience is correct without being open to the possibility of alternative explanations."

Exactly...

Now I am off...I have some dreaming to do...

[Marcia]

[Away]

I have a feeling you can wrap your mind around what I just said and apply it Marcia...I have full confidence in your ability to do so.

[Marcia]

I can also recognize condescension.

Emotional appeals in debates (and attempts to avoid dealing with the subject directly) don't work with everyone.

Condescension usually only works on people who are already insecure.

Away, you didn't answer my questions.
_________________
http://www.meaningofdreams.org

[Marcia]

I thought of a possible way to test for shared dreaming in a laboratory environment. This uses the definition of a shared dream as being a dream in which two people are able to communicate through the dream. It is based on laboratory experiments that have been used to detect lucid dreaming.

I just thought of this off the top of my head, so please feel free to point out any flaws.

The dream requires 2 subjects, Dreamer A and Dreamer B. Dreamer A must be a practiced lucid dreamer. (I know that one flaw of this experiment is the potential difficulty of being able to find someone who is both an (alleged) shared dreamer and a lucid dreamer.)

The two Dreamers are in separate rooms and have no contact with one another.

In the room with Dreamer A is Observer A. In the room with Dreamer B is Observer B. Observer A and Observer B have no opportunity to meet or to communicate with one another before the experiment.

Before Dreamer A goes to sleep, Observer A gives Dreamer A a message that until then was known only to Observer A. Dreamer A must then communicate the message, in a dream, to Dreamer B. (This is where Dreamer A's lucid dreaming ability comes in to play.)

On waking, Dreamer B, who has had no physical contact with Dreamer A, must then communicate the message to Observer B. (If the two dreamers have really communicated in the dream, this should not be a problem.)

Observer A and Observer B then compare notes. If shared dreaming has occurred, Observer B should be able to tell exactly what the message from Observer A was.
_________________
http://www.meaningofdreams.org

[timeisnotlinear]

At first I wasn't sure why one dreamer had to be a skilled lucid dreamer, but it sounds like a good experiment to me.

Another way to go would be would be if the dreamers entered their dreams into a database through a user interface and had no idea how to contact each other outside of that. That database could then be monitored by a third party for correlations.

There's a hitch in your scenario and my scenario. How do the dreamers focus in on each other in the dream world if they don't know who the other dreamer is? It kind of removes the "connection" angle, if there is one. Granted, they know the dreamer's location, but sometimes it can take more than that. Two people could possibly have a stronger connection and that in turn might leads to them having a greater chance of having a shared dream.

There's quite a few layers to the phenomenon, if it does exist.

[Marcia]

The dreamers would know each other. They just wouldn't be able to contact one another during experiment. It wouldn't matter because the instruction of what was supposed to happen in the dream would come from one of the observers of the experiment.

The database sounds like it could be practical.

I think the important thing is that a neutral person tells the first dreamer what is to happen in the dream, without the second dreamer knowing, so the two dreamers who know each other can't collude in advance and plan what they are going to say happened in the dream.

And the second dreamer can't have any knowledge of what the first dreamer's dream was when the second dreamer records or tells their dream.

It's like when two people are allegedly involved in a crime and the police question them separately to find out what really happened.
_________________
http://www.meaningofdreams.org

[chaka]

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[timeisnotlinear]

Chaka,

Welcome to the IASD Discussion Boards.

[Marcia]

[chaka]

Edit

[Marcia]

[chaka]

Edit.

[Marcia]

Ok. It is the structure of space-time that causes objects to appear to fall. But what we experience is objects falling.

You are also right about larger objects exhibiting wave-like patterns.

Your experiment does make sense. The issue is that you have no way of knowing whether the other person and I really had those dreams or we are lying to you and have just fabricated the dreams so it looks like we had a shared dream.

That's why I thought of the idea of having separate observers, who have no contact with each other, deciding what should be in the dream and listening to an account of the dream. (I realise probably not a very practical experiment).

I believe that what this thread was about originally was proving the existence of shared dreaming to a third party.
_________________
http://www.meaningofdreams.org

[chaka]

Edit.

[Marcia]

[chaka]

Edit.

[Marcia]

[nightmare]

for me shared dreams are a comon thing, i meet alot of women and kill alot of men

ofcourse science proves no link to sleeping brains but with my dream theory the persons are physicaly teleported to a location where the dream takes place

hovering in the air at hitlers castle i was being shot by numerous soldiers but the bullets where reflecting off me and i was taking their own weapons and killing them with one shot. they were even switching sides cause i was invincible but i still killed them. flying with an aquired powerfull weapon i must of killed the whole army even as they were retreating. at the end of the the castle after more mass murder i yelled im here for the queen. many of my dreams involve meeting women some who ive seen in real life some who i havnt

[Marcia]

[nightmare]

no im saying my physical body is my soul and i warp to some part of the universe, the dream lands, where dreams occour

the dreamland is like a magic holodeck

people warp there when they are dteaming, they are not really asleep but in some weird state of mind then they return home and think it was all in their head

but i know the truth
to the women i have to be the man of their dreams
to the men i have to be their worst nightmare

bit like a mix of nightmare on elm street where freddy invades dreams and the movie inception but this is all real and not a movie

like the movie war games i firstly believed i was in a game in a matrix computer but then realised it was all real

[Marcia]

[nightmare]

the supernatural force that runs the universe is so powerful it cannot be revealed that easy, it makes everything seem natural and its aim is to make itself not seem real like god doesnt exist for many reasons. but theorticaly as ive explained in my other posts i know its the axis of the universe. it works in a way like a program to raise and run the populations of the worlds in a natural order. but for me i am being raised to take command of the dreamworld with every known type of superpower. my belief is that one day i will posses these powers in reality, i can see how its setting me up. the question is when is it going to happen in reality, how is it going to work, will i have to keep it a secret, will i be the only one and what is the fate of the universe when its in my hands. im already changing lives, ive been invading dreams superpowered for quite some time now leaving a great impact on many lives of women who love me. im getting more powefull and experienced by the day. it is important for me to become flawless at what i do so when it happens in real life and i become the center of attention i will become a perfect god. the legacy is that of shang tsung who morphs into every character and uses their power. i could have multiple roles where i am one person per part of the universe per part of civilisation groups, all the main superhero characters will be those of me. shang tsung. jonny hancock, superman and spiderman are my favourites also wolverine. in the dreamland all my powers work perfectly and since im warping there and not having illusions in my head the dreamland would be the same as any other world or dimention so the only difference is that i will be 100 percent awake. ive been through so many women ive lost count the only catch to my supremency, cause i love women and with so many its going to be a little dificult to spend time with them which is why i use the dreamlands at the moment and i am getting used to god power

[Rawn]

Dude.....thats seriously delusional
Even if you only believe half the spam you are saying, its still crazy.
100% Grade A whack job
_________________
All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other.

H P Lovecraft

[nightmare]

think about what you say about my post before you say it, at least half the time you spend reading it

i chose to tell you its not my fault you cant see the difference between an undercover supernatural universe and your dreams

look you really need to be intelligent to see the flaws in science

some of you wont never understand, you only use ten per cent of your brain the other ninety percent is supernatural ie super powers but anyway have a nice day